Wednesday, August 1, 2007

Fast & Forward.

There is no great success without great risk. At least, that's the message I'm hearing a lot lately. I've also noticed a pattern among some of my glamazon, outgoing, successful girlfriends; apathetic men. Now, I understand that men in general can appear apathetic simply because, well...They're just not into you. But we're talking about fun, sparkly, intelligent women who crush on the quiet, stable, kind, GOOD GUY. (You can think otherwise, but TRUST ME, he is in EVERYONE's Top 3.) Being the gregarious creature she is, she naturally reaches out to him, is friendly toward him, and has no trouble going out of her way to put herself in his line of sight. While he is reciprocal, he isn't taking it to the next level. He isn't asking her out.

Normally, my general opinion is, "If he's not asking, I'm not going," but in these situations, where it's clear he likes her, it can be somewhat hard to read. The other night, as I listened to yet another one of these spectacular women bemoaning her confusion, I noticed a pattern among them. While these women are aggressive in being successful in life, not one of them wants to be aggressive in relationships. Being the naturally outgoing woman she is, because she is the first to approach him, she doesn't know if his interest is real, or if it's simply because she's made herself accessible. When I am in this situation, I have come to develop the attitude that if he's not asking, he's not interested. But when I see these situations happen to other friends of mine, I think, "That's CRAZY! He's obviously intimidated/afraid of rejection/thinks he has no chance with you!"

So what's an assertive girl to do? None of us wants to end up in a relationship where we call all the shots; we do that enough in our careers, callings, and social circles. All men will say it's flattering to have a girl ask him out, my question for you much does he mean it?

And if you could make your advice quickly...One girl has found her paramour is moving in a few weeks!


Tannerama said...

I think that there are lots of girls (too many in my estimation) that just kind of put it all out there. Flirting and hugging up on just about any guy, because they have been told to be flirty because it will procure a man.

The problem is that it isn't tempered. Girls are using the shotgun flirt instead of the sniper flirt. They are flirting with everyone rather than just the guys they like. I'm not saying your friend is doing this. But, I am saying that your friend may be suffering from the backlash of this. She may be flirting with him and only him. But because there are all these other girls who flirt and stuff as just normal behavior that he isn't sure if she is "just being nice" or giving him the okay to ask her out.

Which is why I say "When in doubt, ask her out." If you aren't sure? Ask her out. It's not rocket science. "But what if she says 'no'?" Pardon my French but BFD! Life will go on.

Of course, I can't speak for all guys. But, I would be flattered if a girl asked me out. I know it is a man's duty to ask girls out, and I do ask girls out. The reason I would be so flattered is because I do ask girls out. It takes away the guess work. And there is a lot to be said for that.

Sorry for the long response.

Seymour Glass said...

how much do we mean it? a lot. more than a lot.

i've had several conversations in the last month with girls i'm friends with about this issue. for whatever reason girls think it's terribly easy for us to ask you out, which it often isn't (even if we're pretty sure we'll always get an initial yes). part of the challenge is you often don't know if (or how much) she's into you. so you have to be bold.

but for some reason many of the women i know, in the church, are loath to ask a guy out that they're interested in. these independent, confident, and assertive women become Victorian ladies when it comes to dating all of a sudden. don't do that. this is the 21st century. you will not be thought forward or less virtuous because you're assertive and go after what you want (unless you're dealing with an idiot, but then you'll know he's an idiot early on). so just do it.

now it may not conform to your romantic comedy inspired ideal of how things should get started, but if it works out and you're in a good relationship who cares who asked whom out first. plus it's always good to remember that us men are generally clueless about what you're thinking so we tend to be oblivious to who's interested in us, unless someone tells us (and we might not believe it anyway). if you ask him out first, then there can't be much doubt that you're interested then can there?

Seymour Glass said...

oh, and one more thing...why would being assertive end up with a relationship where you call all the shots? those two don't equate at all in my mind. perhaps you'd end up in a relationship where nobody calls all the shots and both of you call shots together. i know, it's a crazy idea, but i've seen it happen.

Sarita said...

I think it less a matter of a victorian romantic ideal or being thought too assertive, and more that women (excluding those who really do want to call all the shots) find men who take some intiative and are proactive manly and therefore attractive.

I have had my fill of wimpy guys that have to be resassured every 10 minutes. My limited dating experience is full of em. And let me tell you....not attractive.

I've also found that those that I have had to take such initiative with are overwhelmingly those who continue in that wimpy regard. Not that there are not exceptions. I just havent seen them.

Salt H2O said...

I've been in this situation, and what I'd do would be to put it out there so it's VERY easy for him to ask you out. ie- Once I asked his roomate "So when is your roomate going to ask me out?" Whadda know, that afternoon I got a phone call.

Another one, "How long am I going to have to relentlessly flirt with you until you ask me out?" - a little more assertive, and gutsy- but if you know the guy likes you, it's an easy way for him to step up to the plate.

The one I'd suggest for your friend. Would be along the lines of: "I can't believe you're moving! It's been hard enough trying to get you to ask me out while you lived here- it's going to be nearly impossible to get you to ask me out when you live in another state!"

In all 3 senerios the guy has an easy in. It worked for me, but I only used it when I knew the guy was interested.

And if he's really not interested- No Big Deal. He's moving.

I've also got the perfect line to ensure that a guy you give your phone number to will call you- 100% fufillment rate. But I'll save that for another time.

cropstar5 said...

In my opinion flirting does not work. It has become too commonplace.
I agree with Sarita- not asking a guy out isn't being Victorian, it's allowing him to BE A MAN.
However, I see absolutely no problem asking a guy to ask you out. Saying, "if you asked me out I'd say yes," or "I'd love it if you asked me out."
It's assertive yet still requires action on the part of the guy. And if he doesn't ask you out then he's not interested (or too much of a wimp, and like sarata said- not attractive).

Thomas said...
This comment has been removed by the author. said...

Ladies; let me assure that Guys are Stupid! In fact, my brother has been known to say "Guys are stupid, Girls are mean."

Seymour makes many good points; but I like what Salty has done to easy the stupidity out of the guys.

Here's the thing about most LDS men in their late 20s. They either refuse to grow-up (Man-boys as you call them) or they have been hurt and thus gun shy.

I find myself in the latter group. Here's the kicker, and not to blow my own horn, I still go out and get numbers, still call women, and still don't get the call back. All of this, though, because I am a different kind of stupid.

Anyway, woa-is-me ~ I'm great!

The other thought about guys being intimidated by strong women . . . well, women, would you want to be with a man that is intimidated by your strenghts? I don't think so. Are your crushes worthy of you?

And men want to feel manly, that is why they don't want to be rejected; but as it was said earlier on, flirting doesn't work - we are just too stupid for that.

If all else fails, there may be spots on the TV show that I am pitching (Bree says she might help produce it).

Sarita said...

Amen! I get told that they are all just intimidated more times than I can count (and way more times than I have dated this year). Half the time I think well meaning people feel a need to console me and the other half acutally mean it. What's so intimidating? If you can't ask a girl out when you're edging on 30, then when can you?

Are there no men left in the world?! ***echo***echo***

charlottalove said...

Found you through ThomCarter. I liked SaltWater's comments. I am one of those girls that can flirt with anyone BUT the guy I like. What Salt H2O suggests helps ease the stress on the gal while letting the guy know he's got an in. Win win situation. And I DO want to know about that pickup line.

Marie said...

Is it too late to second Sarita? She says it so well.

If men are getting rejected now and then, that's just the ordinary price of winning yourself lifetime conjugal rights -- the same price paid by men since time immemorial. I don't envy them that role, but there you have it. If you're getting rejected most of the time, it's because you're asking out women who are out of your league or out of your age group (and not yet interested in marriage) and maybe it is YOU who should lay off the romantic comedies (As Good As It Gets, anyone?) I assure you, there are many of us non-obvious date choices who are so starvin' for dates we'd beat ourselves up for turning down the advances of a granny-beating neo-Nazi.

A few months ago I informed a guy who had been flirting with me for months that I needed him to either ask me out or leave me alone, because I was emotionally attached to him and the situation was becoming painful for me. He responded flippantly and then a few days later introduced me to his new girl. This experience reaffirmed that men typically don't like assertive women. They like (as does everyone) not having to risk their egos, but ultimately they don't like being the hunted. As a wise blogstress once said, when they really want you, they'll "cowboy up," even if they're gun-shy.

Yee-haw, yippee cay-ay yay, Ye Elders of Israel!

caroline said...

i was raised to think that if a guy likes you, he asks you out. period.

so i can never ever initiate that first step. i guess it's a study in contradiction. i believe that women should be able to do whatever they want and receive the same pay/rights as men, but i still believe in some of the old fashioned roles. guys make the first moves, and should open my door. i have found though, that most aggressive girls that don't have my old fashioned ways ingrained in their head date a lot more than girls of my way of thinking.

Salt H2O said...

I think the key is to be playful, lighthearted and funny about it- correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand- men don't like serious.

ooh...maybe she should send him a mix tape...

Marie said...

I can believe that women who initiate things date more (most men aren't cruel enough to say no to a first date, if they've been burned themselves), but I doubt they get many substantial relationships that way. Or maybe I'm wrong? I just know what I've seen in my family and among my immediate circle of friends here in the SLC area. Maybe there's a blessed place out there where women initiate the relationships and it all works out.

Or maybe that's just the Isle of Lesbos.

The Dally Llama said...

The blog world is small, indeed. Charlotta, it's Dallas from Franklin Park. How goes it?

My read is this. Because the dude is moving, throw it out there, or spend the next few months/years wondering what might have been. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It's better to aim at the stars than to aim at a pile of turd and hit.

-Um, that's about all the applicable cliches I can think of. Seriously though, go for it. She's got nothing to lose, and a lot of sleepless nights wondering what might have happened if she would have asked waiting for her if she does nothing. Man, it's a lot easier to be gutsy about someone else's life, isn't it?

Rachel said...

Why so many rules? It would be so nice if we could all just be ourselves, reach out, be open and honest, ask for what we want, be considerate of others, and not have sensitive egos. It all sounds so nice, but I think that fear gets in the way. Oh, and I guess that we are not perfect either. Oh well.

caroline said...

believe it or not, those more aggressive girls are the ones that always had boyfriends. but yeah, you gotta do what feels natural and right for you. which is why i'd feel like an idiot if i tried to be like my friends who are more aggressive. however, i usually believe it's better to chance something than regret doing nothing later. when it's too late.

easier said than done.

Marie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
f*bomb. said...

If a man can't ask for my number, how will he ask for a promotion? If he can't ask me on a date, how will he ask to lead a project? If he cannot plan time with me now, how will he ever manage our family?

What we're asking is simple; your actions now are indicative of your abilities to lead and serve as a father, husband, and church leader in the future.

f*bomb. said...

Did anyone else notice ALL the men said she should ask him out first, and all the women said she shouldn't?

Like I said, it SEEMS like a good idea, but so far, it doesn't sound like it's actually worked for anyone.

Rebuttal? Anyone? Anyone?

f*bomb. said...

She did it!
They're going out Friday night!

The Dally Llama said...

I'm going to go ahead and call that a good rebuttal.

Tannerama said...

I didn't say that she should ask him out. I was just answering your question as to how much a guy meant it when he said he would be flattered if a girl asked him out.

Seymour Glass said...

i did not say that a girl should ask a guy out first. i simply said that if she's interested she should do something about it. if flirting's not working, if hint dropping hasn't worked (and at some point it becomes passive aggressive like the "why haven't you asked me out yet"), then yeah, ask him out...what do you lose? i don't regret the girls i've asked out, but i do regret a few that i didn't ask out.

and per farrah's point...if she (she being a generic woman, NOT farrah) is unwilling to take the initiative in her own life until a man does something, what kind of woman, wife, or mother will she be? now this may seem a harsh point (so don't start yelling at me until you read the next phrase), but i'm simply taking Farrah's logic from her recent comments to its logical conclusion. i don't disagree with her point (and others) that people's behavior can be indicative of future behavior. on the other hand, i'd be a bit careful of judging someone's potential in life based on my early interactions with them.

what i think it comes down to is that we should all be a little bit bolder versions of ourselves in this regard. clearly we want more so why not go out there and go for it.

and good for your friend for asking him out. i hope it goes well.

Morgan said...

well said seymour. well said. i really hope that my potential in life is not judged based on a few brief interactions.

f*bomb. said...

"Clearly, we want more..." Ah, Seymour. I may have to cross-stitch that somewhere.

Nice rebuttal. I would be inclined to agree with the men here, however...I believe women's hesitations here are based not in Victorian manners, nor rejection, but in acquiring yet another man who is apathetic about her company. When she is convenient, it bodes well with him, but when she is not...well, he's not exactly reeling to get up off the couch and partner up for her. Hence, women have learned that it isn't that men DON'T appreciate women who are leaders, it's that they rarely appreciate her in relationships when she does lead.

Anonymous said...

Hey Peeps,
It's me. . . the girl in question. Well, I just wanted to say thanks for all the comments you've shared. (I about pee'd myself reading them, and I'm glad I didn't read them before I decided to call him! I'd have been even more nervous!) I especially like the comment about the mix-tape. . . maybe I'll do that as a special first date gift! =) But seriously, I wanted to get on here and contribute to the madness by sharing the negotiations in my head, and give you my perspective.
Let me just start by adding in a few details that make me seem a little less desperate. I'll first say that we had a very unique meet and some great story propelling moments together. I had only met him 3 weeks ago, and with the sudden discovery of his moving, I felt that I couldn't let this turn into another one of those "what if" scenarios. . . you know. "What if I just would have had the guts to put myself out there?" Knowing myself and how I love to torment myself in the cold snowy nights (I know it's August, I'm setting a mood, okay?) I decided to make it clear that I was interested and then let him take the lead. I called him Tuesday, but got his vm. I left a simple message saying, "Hey ***, it's ***. Just wanted to call and say hi, and see if you wanted to grab dinner Thursday or Friday." Clear, concise. But casual (see the use of grab, and hey.) A bit later, he called back and pleasantly surprised me with and upgrade: from dinner, to dinner and a movie Friday night. After settling the details, he moved us right back into conversation, and we spent another 30 minutes on the phone. I ended the call then, as dinner was ready.
So, now that you are all up to speed on the actual asking out scenario, here's some other pertinent details: I'm not concerned about his potential as a husband and leader. It's easily examplified in his daily life (he's a lawyer in his late 20's who attended a prestigious law school and got hired at a firm before even taking the bar, is in a leadership position in church, and just an all around great guy.) As for me, I travel all over the place and I'm never in one city long enough to really establish that whole "comfortability factor" with guys that makes the whole asking out thing easier. So, the reality of the situation for me, as I am figuring out more and more lately, is that I have to go after what I want. I am not a controling person, and I'm pretty fun, I think (right Farah). Some might call me a good catch, but they would also call me an impossible catch. This is becoming clear for me, and so I am officially getting over my fear of being rejected, and making my interest clear. I am doing so, however, and then stepping off the gas and giving the guy the chance to take the lead. I feel good about it, and I can't wait to see how this works. I should just be myself, and this is who I am, and what I want.
Wow, I hope you don't think I am crazy now. . . maybe it was better if I was just some hypothetical creature floating in the mist. But now that I am real, I will have to give you updates on what really happens. I promise to let you know how the date goes on Friday, and whether all of this was worth it. If it is, and I have a sneaking suspicion it might be, I will be looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my next step. . . I know, I might be a little crazy- Just the right amount, I think.
Thanks again!

f*bomb. said...

Girl, just so you know...You weren't the only one. There are a few other women who all shared similar situations with me about the same time, which is why this topic seemed so relevant.

I might also add, dear readers, that this chick is drop-your-jaw, supermodel gorgeous and has a personality to match. Another girl in this scenario is absolutely showstopping and sweet as strawberry pie, but supershy. Another girl is a thrill-a-minute brainiac with a rockin' bod. I could go on, but the long and short of it is, my friends are megahot and when I say some men might be intimidated by them, I really DO mean it!
Hence the dilemma...You understand?